Classic Car Bulgaria
Общи форуми => Общи приказки => Темата е започната от: kegare в Декември 13, 2019, 01:35:50
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Hello.
Sorry for posting in English but I don't speak any Bulgarian. I am a member of IMCDb which deals with listing and identifying vehicles that appear in movies. A couple of Google searches lead to this forum which seems to be the right place to ask for help identifying a car that appears in a Lithuanian documentary film. This unknown coupe bears a Bulgarian license plate that reads 'ПБ 9053'.
Can you guys help us identify this vehicle? Who built this car and what is its name?
(https://imcdb.org/i001329515.jpg)
Here is the car in our movie database: https://imcdb.org/vehicle_1329515.html
Thank you.
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Hi, regards from us also.
It is very nice, that you have found a shot with such a rare vehicle from our country.
In the 1960s and 70s, in all of the socialist countries back then, because of the shortage of new consumer goods, there was something of a civil movement, but encouraged from the state, which can be described as a- Do it Yourself movement.
A papers and magazines were printed with detailed instructions and photos of some homebuild projects, so the people can make themselfs things like- sewing maschins, portable radios, light mopeds, yachts, small planes, etc, and of course- cars.
As a result, even in Bulgaria in those years, quiet a number of persons have acomplished the building of some remarkably homogen from a design standpoint, handmade cars.
during that time, in the press I have seen photos of at least 4 or 5 different very well build hadmade bulgarian cars from that era.
But non of the cars on these photos, resambles even slightly this example.
So, there is a big chance, that more photos from this car can be found in some of the printed magazines of that movement, or in some other science and technic BG magazines from the era.
Some of the bulgarian tech magazines from the 60s and 70s, are now digitally scanned and posted on bulgarian cites on the Net, but I dont remember to have seen in these scanned issues, photo of that exact handmade car.
I suppose, that this car is made in any case somewhere after 1967, because the rear lights appear to be the lights from this small car- ZAZ 968, which debuted for the 1966 model year.
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D1%86
In regard of the technik, to me this car looks to be with conventional layout- front engine, and rear drive. Possibly Moskvitsch engine if build prior to 1971, or Lada-Jiguli engine, if build later.
The white base registration plate- ПБ /PB- this is the prefix for the city of Plovdiv/ is in any case registration of a Government or Community owned car, because it is white with black letters.
After cirka 1966, and prior to 1986, all State, Government, Community, or all other non-private owned cars in BG, were with white plates, and all private owned cars were with black plates.
Anyway, I havent checked and seen until now, all of the digitally scanned pages ot the different monthly published BG tech magazines from the era rom 1960s to the 1980s, so Im planning to do that in the next months or year.
If a see a picture of this particular car from front, or other pictures and info at all, I will post it here, so you can see in. :)
Best wishes, Liudmil
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Люси, колата, дори и да е изградена на база възли от Москвич или Лада, е с независимо задно окачване. Кола, с твърд заден мост по съвсем друг начин "поставя" колелетата в завой. Според мен, е базирана на Рено 8/10, Запорожец или Костенурка.
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Колата е джанти от Рено 12... 14... 17 С три болта и това е базата на автомобила.
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Колата е джанти от Рено 12... 14... 17 С три болта и това е базата на автомобила.
И по точно Рено 8 /10 с 15 ките 3 по 130 мм междуболтово. В договора ни с Франция има клауза
за развойна дейност :D
Та това е оттам.
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Колата най-вероятно е конструирана втората половина на 70 те години, като следва линията на Рено 17 и Алпин 310. Разработката вероятно е дело по линия на ТНТМ или предприятие с развойна дейност за създаване на български автомобил на база налични достъпни платформи.
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Задните светлини мисля са от Фиат 850 спорт купе, каквито се сглобяваха и у нас в Ловешкия завод в края на 60-те г. Имал съм лично такава кола преди 20 г. Относно тази самоделка, най-добре да попитаме Иван Колев, редакторът на сп. Ретро класик, той прави доста задълбочени проучвания в тази област... ще му пиша във Фейса, дано ми отговори скоро...
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Люси, колата, дори и да е изградена на база възли от Москвич или Лада, е с независимо задно окачване. Кола, с твърд заден мост по съвсем друг начин "поставя" колелетата в завой. Според мен, е базирана на Рено 8/10, Запорожец или Костенурка.
Да, прав си. тая точно в завой разместена успоредност на 2-те задни колела, говори за независим заден мост.
Всичките другите също сте прави за джантите и главините, а и именно предвид на Пловдив служ. табели, сигурно е нещо свързано с развойната дейност на нашия тогавашен цех/завод.
Индикатор за точната година на регистр. или пререгистр, може и да е буквата на номера след П.
И прави сте, Иван сигурно най ще я разгадае.
Ами като сме готови с инфото, и тогава може да го препостнем на английски за колегата чужденец.
Иначе браво и на него, добра загадка ни сервира. :))
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колегата чужденец.
"Другарката певица Рени ... " :)) :))
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"Другарката певица Рени ... " :)) :))
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))
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To the topic initiator-
- We discuss here some technical details and suggestions about this homebuild, and when, hopefully, we are ready with the final and possibly most accurate conclusion /we also await main info from one bulgarian tech historian/, we will write that to you translated.
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Thanks for the info guys, very impressive how self-sustainability was encouraged at such a level that made building cars more than just a hobby. I believe that these socialist countries were lucky to have this massive diversity of vehicles and creativity which is so interesting to research nowadays.
I understand from your posts that you see this car as a mish-mash of Western (French) and Soviet parts, and I agree. The 3-lug wheels match with a Renault,
(https://i.imgur.com/i1ZItyS.jpg)
But unlike Renaults, this car looks rear-wheel drive as you and one of our members suggested because the front wheels lift while the car turns.
I initially thought that the tail lights are from Fiat 850 but didn't think of ZAZ. Might as well be. Looking forward to more info and opinions.
I should have linked to the documentary as well. Here it is:
Go to 4:36
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Dropping a link to: http://www.allcarindex.com/search/country/Bulgaria/?f=1&i=mod where some other homemade Bulgarian cars are listed. But sadly not this one.
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But unlike Renaults, this car looks rear-wheel drive as you and one of our members suggested because the front wheels lift while the car turns.
I initially thought that the tail lights are from Fiat 850 but didn't think of ZAZ.
Most like this prototype was based on platform of the rear-engine models Renault 8/10. They were produced for a short time in late 60's here at Plovdiv city, Bulgaria, under license from Renault. This plant produced even a several pieces of Alpine A 110, under the brand name Bulgaralpine.
For the rear lights I also think, that they're from rear engined Fiat 850 Sport coupe, that also was produced in Bulgaria, Lovetch town at "Balkan" plants in late 60's /trade mark Pirin-Fiat/. 20 years ago I've owned such car myself.
I''m waiting for more info from our biggest car historian Ivan Kolev, chief editor of the "Retro classic" car magazine.
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Regarding the car construction and origin, if I can summarise the bulgarian language posts, the most plausible opinion until now seems to be, that this particular vehicle was something of a freestyle exercise, or test bed, made by some of the engineers and techicians, which have worked in our Bulgar-Renault plant, in the early 1970s.
For this conclusion, speaks also the colour of the registration plate, which indicates that this vehicle is government owned. If that is the case, the photos /and the movie/ in which are visible the set of wheels from Renault 17, may have been made later in the life of the car, so in mid to late 1970s, possibly the wheels were then added to the car.
In the short period in the movie around 4.30 min, exacly before the entrance of the homemade car, most of the other visible cars are very famous bulgarian rallye cars from the beginning of 1970s.
So I suppose, the homemade car was used for something of a demonstration run, before the actual start of one of this big bulgarian rallyes in the period.
Dropping a link to: http://www.allcarindex.com/search/country/Bulgaria/?f=1&i=mod where some other homemade Bulgarian cars are listed. But sadly not this one.
Thanks for the link, there is some photos, which I havent seen until here.
On the fourth photo is seen a vehicle, which represents one of the few bulgarian attempts of making a pure sports car, during the socialist period.
in this case, the two seater mid-engined Sofia Type B. /The exists a predecessor- Type A, which was was some kind of d Buggy, and Type C was also an open topped preasure car/.
In all, there have been built around 7 or 8 full complete cars Sofia B cars, in the period from 1984 to 1992, or something.
At least, this is my observation from back than. The Sofia B main constructor and boss of the small government-funded firm, which build those cars, was the late eng. Velizar Andreev.
During my study in one technical gimnasium in the capital Sofia in the mid-1980s, I was able to spend two summer holidays, working different things on number 2 to number 4 built, Sofia B-s.
Here on the 4-th photo you see number 1 or number 2 built Sofia B, because only the two firstly built cars, have this allmost upright A-pillar on the front window. All the next cars from this small batch of Sofia B-s, were with more slim looking and normally cambered A-pillars.
Interesting footnote on this photo, which is taken on the street in front of the house of the constructor eng. Andreev, are the two Volga-s, GAZ-24.
These were the two regular personal cars of the engineer, and on the white one, he have forcefully cut the metal roof of the car in 1985, so he drive in style, in the hot summer of this unforgetable year.
Interestigly, the structure of this GAZ was so strong, even for a car without chassis, that it didnt collapse immidiately, and was still drivable after couple of years later.
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Това е прототип, направен в завода на Булгаррено в Пловдив, след като е спряно там производството на колите. Казва се "Юбилейна". Цялата каросерия е стъклопластика, на принципа на Алпина. Заден двигател 1300 кубика(Лада) и скоростна кутия и заден мост от ЗАЗ. Общата дължина е 302 см и височина 105 см. Имала е регистрация до 1980 година , а е показана в завършен вид през 1974-5 година.
(http://pichost.name/images/2019/12/17/f31c5320381072650ae4f3ee181b2ff6.md.jpg) (http://pichost.name/image/Dkk2G)
(http://pichost.name/images/2019/12/17/c6afaf17fe30eb435bd2bd2ae6122992.md.jpg) (http://pichost.name/image/DkMQ9)
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Супер, благодарим за инфото.
Сега ако може някой колега съзнателен фен, :)) да бъде добър да преведе на топик-инициатора на английски тия данни, че баш сега аз няма да мога.
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Информацията е изчерпателна, само размерите не ми се връзват 302 см дължина е малко вероятна, а височината 105 см е невъзможна.
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Това е прототип, направен в завода на Булгаррено в Пловдив, след като е спряно там производството на колите. Казва се "Юбилейна". Цялата каросерия е стъклопластика, на принципа на Алпина. Заден двигател 1300 кубика(Лада) и скоростна кутия и заден мост от ЗАЗ. Общата дължина е 302 см и височина 105 см. Имала е регистрация до 1980 година , а е показана в завършен вид през 1974-5 година.
Thanks for the research. :)
'Yubileina' made at Bulgarrenault plant with some local parts, you say? The microcar proportions and the ZAZ rear axle are a bit puzzling. Can a Zaporozhets axle accomodate a 3 lug nut Renault rear wheel? Why wouldn't they just use a Renault axle? Do you happen to know the purpose of the prototype?
I hope my questions make sense once translated.
By the way, this documentary was released in 1974 as per the credits, so the filming must have been done prior to that.
Супер, благодарим за инфото.
Сега ако може някой колега съзнателен фен, :)) да бъде добър да преведе на топик-инициатора на английски тия данни, че баш сега аз няма да мога.
Don't worry about that, Google Translate does wonders. :)
Информацията е изчерпателна, само размерите не ми се връзват 302 см дължина е малко вероятна, а височината 105 см е невъзможна.
Those proportions are indeed questionable. What is described is a car shorter than the old Morris Mini and approximately 35cm less tall. :o
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Юбилейна means anniversary. Tha car is named so most probably in honor of the 30th anniversary of September 9, 1944.
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Abouth the translation, all right, some very funny combinations of words arrived with Google translator, but anyway, it is useful tool. :))
Юбилейна means anniversary. Tha car is named so most probably in honor of the 30th anniversary of September 9, 1944.
Well, didnt thought about that, but such a round number of years, since the date of the beginning of the communist rule in Bulgaria /later incorrectly, but widely acclaimed, as the date of the- Socialist and Anti-nazi revolution/, was always a big reason for Anniversary celebrations at that era.
The reason this car to be build at all, I suppose, is connected with the exact name of the car- Yubileina. That is, because on on such a round Anniversary dates of the 9-th of September 1944, like: 20-th, 25-th, 30-th, or 40-th Anniversary, plenty of working or scientific collectives, or in this case, factory group of technicians and engineers, try to make their own independent and not ordered projects of any kind.
Which projects their autors, on the exact or near dates to these special ocassion days, oficially gift to the Government or Party. Or, so to say, to the people of the- Peoples republic of Bulgaria.
So, the reason for the existance of this particular car, may be around this 30-th Year of 1944 celebrations.
About the back axle.
It is possible, in my opinion, that new halfshafts were fabricated specially for this car, which must combine for their inner side, the dimensions aplicable for the ZAZ-gearbox, and for their outer side, the dimensions and fittings, applicable for the rear axles of Renault 8-10 models.
Or, this is also possible, the autors of the project, just cut and well togethet pair of ZAZ halfshafts, with pair of Renault halfshafts...
But I highly doubt, that in this car is used ZAZ gearbox, to be connected to a in-Line 4 cil. Lada engine, because this gearbox is constructed to accomodate the ZAZ V-4 angine, so it is not very easy to mount any other than V-shape engine, on it.
So, along comes also one other suggestion of mine.
I suppose strongly, that the constructors of this vehicle have used simply a Skoda S100 gearbox, because it is realy easy to connect this Czech gearbox, to a Lada/Jiguli engine.
In the 70-s and 80-s, there were some rallye Skodas 105-120, which have succesfully received Lada engine-swaps, mounted directly on their original Skoda Gearboxes.
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След внимателно разчитане на чертежа ето и размерите: дължина - 3840 мм, ширина - 1670 мм и височина - 1170 мм. За съжаление този прототип през 1980 година е прибран от няколко милиционера в Пловдив и от тогава се губят следите му.
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Височината е възможно да е 1370, но по-вероятно е 1470 мм.